Sanjay Gubbi - Session 04, 2022-06-14

File 1

(00:00:28) Decision to leave Centre for Wildlife Studies (CWS) and transitioning to Nature Conservation Foundation (NCF)

Sanjay Gubbi discusses his decision to leave CWS, mentioning various factors that contributed to his departure.

Over time, discussions with his friend, Mysore Doreswamy Madhusudan [Archivist’s note: the speaker refers to him throughout the interview as “Madhu”, but the index term and summary use his full name], who also suggested opportunities at NCF, played a pivotal role. Madhusudan’s support, combined with the chance to work on conservation issues in a different manner, ultimately led Gubbi to transition to NCF.

[01:43 - 02:02 – Restricted access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

(00:04:10) Multifaceted nature of knowledge and government systems and conservation efforts

Gubbi discusses the multifaceted nature of knowledge, questioning whether it solely encompasses academic, peer-reviewed data or also includes informal knowledge, experience, and understanding of ground realities. He emphasises the importance of personal relationships and navigating government systems in conservation efforts, highlighting the continuity of work beyond organisational shifts.

Gubbi elaborates on the intricacies of engaging with government systems in conservation efforts, highlighting the need to navigate bureaucratic hierarchies and policies. He details the process of proposal submission, bureaucratic procedures, and legal aspects like notification issuance and gazetting. He also underscores the importance of comprehensive understanding and persistent follow-up.

He goes on to discuss the enduring passion and perseverance required for wildlife conservation, citing examples of lengthy struggles and bureaucratic hurdles faced over years, bringing to the fore the need for patience.

(00:17:43) Importance of political and social aspects in conservation

According to Gubbi, formal scientific study contributes minimally to conservation efforts, with the majority being navigating political, social, and bureaucratic landscapes. He advocates for a redefined curriculum in conservation biology education, stressing the importance of incorporating social components like working with political leaders and media. He suggests mandatory dissertations addressing both ecological and social aspects to better prepare students for real-world conservation challenges, preventing a steep learning curve in their careers.

(00:22:39) Communication and conservation

Gubbi speaks about the critical role of communication in conservation, stressing the need to tailor messages to decision-makers’ emotions and backgrounds. He highlights the importance of understanding individual decision-makers’ histories, interests, and priorities, advocating for a nuanced approach in communication strategies to effectively convey conservation messages to diverse audiences.

(00:26:05) Diverse stakeholders in conservation and the value of academic publications

He discusses the diverse stakeholders in conservation, including ecologists, political leaders, and academics, each with different criteria for acceptance. He talks about the importance of keeping various stakeholders satisfied, but personally finds true satisfaction in on-ground conservation achievements rather than academic publications.

(00:28:57) Gubbi’s PhD

Gubbi draws attention to the discrimination within academic circles based on the institution where one obtains a PhD and the personal considerations influencing the choice of university for higher studies. He reflects on his decision to pursue his PhD in India despite offers from Ivy League universities, driven by his desire for on-ground conservation impact.

He addresses the question of how he came to studying leopards for his PhD, recounting his interest in studying both tigers and leopards. He details the challenges and political dynamics associated with tiger conservation and shares about ultimately opting to focus on leopards due to their ecological significance and research gap in India.

[32:06 - 32:29 – Restricted access. Contact archives@ncbs.res.in for details]

He also talks about when he started his PhD and knowing that all data he was collecting was leading up to it.

(00:35:13) Motivation to pursue a PhD, choosing Kuvempu University and influence of other researchers

Gubbi reflects on his personal aspiration for a PhD in ecological sciences and the joy he found in studying leopards.

He discusses the flexibility and teaching responsibilities he enjoyed at Kuvempu University, particularly mentoring rural students who have since pursued wildlife biology careers, emphasising the importance of diversifying the field beyond urban-centric backgrounds.

He highlights the complex relationship people have with leopards, both loved and hated. He shares that he sees them as a symbol of conservation success and challenge.

His says his PhD aimed to inform ground-level conservation efforts, shaped by rigorous discussions and questioning with Madhusudan, focussing on developing well-thought-out questions and study designs.

He underlines personal influence over research impact, citing Alan Rabinowitz, Luke Hunter, and Madhusudan as examples. Their supportive personalities overshadow their research achievements, making them influential figures in conservation beyond their scholarly work.

(00:43:23) Leopard densities and coexistence in human-dominated landscapes

Gubbi discusses the challenge of understanding leopard densities in human-dominated landscapes compared to natural habitats. He questions the popular belief that leopards thrive outside natural areas, stressing the importance of natural habitats for their survival. He highlights the need to consider both leopard abundance and human perspectives to provide a fair assessment of coexistence and its challenges.

Given that leopard dynamics vary vastly across states, generalising findings from limited study areas to the entire country, Gubbi says, neglects crucial factors like habitat and cultural nuances. As seen with elephant projects, he concludes this leads to flawed conclusions about human-wildlife coexistence.

(00:52:21) Societal dynamics in wildlife conflict resolution

Gubbi sheds light on the severe lack of understanding in addressing wildlife conflict, especially with leopards. He highlights the need for societal perspectives in implementing solutions, criticising the academic focus solely on ecological drivers without considering social and political aspects. Lack of involvement in conflict mitigation and failure to understand societal dynamics hinder effective conservation strategies, he says.

He mentions the importance of preparing students in ecological studies for societal challenges, despite these subjects being discouraged in courses. He warns that neglecting this aspect can lead to ineffective solutions and wasted careers, urging for a shift in educational focus towards practical conservation issues.

(00:58:56) Local empowerment and bottom-up solutions

Gubbi highlights the failure of conservation policies driven by urban, English-speaking elites, neglecting local voices and societal complexities. He criticises the top-down approach, advocating for a bottom-up strategy to address conservation challenges effectively. This imperialistic model, he says, perpetuates policy failures and exacerbates conservation issues rather than resolving them.

(01:03:46) Socio-bureaucratic dimensions of human-elephant conflict

He emphasises the need to view elephant-human conflict not just as an ecological issue, but also as a reflection of bureaucratic processes like ex-gratia payments. He questions the efficacy of scientific studies in mitigating conflict and condemns the conservation community’s neglect of societal drivers. Despite extensive research in Karnataka, conflict remains unresolved, highlighting the disparity between conservation efforts and tangible outcomes.

[Archivist’s note: 01:08:19-01:08:36: interviewer and interviewee lost connection]

File 2

(00:00:17) Focus of conservation projects and local engagement in conservation

Gubbi talks about the need for the focus in conservation projects to be fair to both wildlife and people for meaningful impact.

Conservation outreach often neglects those directly affected by conservation efforts. Urban-centric approaches fail to engage rural communities facing the brunt of wildlife conflicts. Gubbi’s initiative, the Holématthi Nature Information Center, aims to rectify this. By providing localised education in Kannada, it fosters positive attitudes towards wildlife among rural children, countering negative perceptions shaped by conflict experiences. This replicable model, Gubbi says, promotes inclusive conservation practices beyond Karnataka.